Patreon MORLS on Movies Preview

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, creeps. Your mysterious old hosts are taking a few weeks off to enjoy the summer and work on various and sundry theatrical projects. In the meantime, we invite you to enjoy a selection of releases from our Patreon Only back catalog, beginning with the debut episode of Morals on Movies. And remember, if you'd like to hear more of our Patreon Only episodes, go to patreon.com themorals and. And become a member of the mysterious Old Radio Listening Society. [00:00:43] Speaker B: He was consumed by evil. [00:00:46] Speaker A: For as long as you can remember, you've struggled against your own black heart. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Shoot through him. [00:00:53] Speaker A: Every man pays a price for redemption. [00:00:54] Speaker B: I'm not looking for redemption. [00:00:57] Speaker A: You have no choice. [00:00:59] Speaker B: But I'll teach you to use your. [00:01:01] Speaker A: Black shadow to fight evil. [00:01:04] Speaker B: He became the Shadow. I didn't see anything. I swear. Dump him. Who's there? Did you think you'd get away with it? Did you think I wouldn't know now when the world is in danger Report. [00:01:26] Speaker A: Police investigation of murder. [00:01:29] Speaker C: Agent advises inquiry. [00:01:31] Speaker B: Who knows what powers stir in the night? Whenever you did it's in the past. Join me. [00:01:39] Speaker A: Inside you beats a heart of darkness. [00:01:42] Speaker B: I do what I do to fight back the evil inside me. But some part of it is still there, waiting. Genghis Khan conquered half of the world in his lifetime. I intend to finish the job. And when the adventure begins, activate the bomb. Who knows where it will end? Alec Baldwin, John Lone, Penelope Ann Miller. And Tim Curry. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow welcome to Morals on Movies, where we take a deep dive into films that connect to the world of classic radio. I'm Eric. [00:02:38] Speaker C: I'm Tim. [00:02:38] Speaker A: And I'm Joshua. [00:02:40] Speaker C: On our regular podcast, the Mysterious Old Radio Listening Society, we explore suspense, crime and horror stories from the golden age of radio. But here we expand our scope to film, looking at how movies have adapted, reimagined, or been influenced by radio's legacy. [00:02:54] Speaker A: And today we're discussing a film that sought to bring one of radio's most iconic figures to the big screen. The Shadow. Released in 1994 and starring Alec Baldwin. [00:03:06] Speaker B: The Shadow first emerged in 1930 as the mysterious narrator of Detective Story Magazine Hour, a radio program meant to promote the pulp magazine of the same name. Listeners quickly became more interested in the eerie voiced host than the stories themselves. And by 1931, the shadow had become a full fledged character in his own pulp magazine. Created by writer Walter B. Gibson under the pen name Maxwell Grant, the Shadow. [00:03:34] Speaker C: Exploded in popularity, particularly when the radio Adaptation debuted in 1937. Starring none other than Orson Welles. This incarnation of the character was given a new ability, the power to cloud men's minds so that they could not see him. For nearly two decades, the Shadow, whether in radio, pulp fiction, comics or film serials, was synonymous with strange mystery and thrilling adventure. [00:03:56] Speaker A: By the 1980s, though, the Shadow had largely faded into nostalgia until DC Comics brought him back in a bold and controversial way. In 1986, writer and artist Howard Chaykin reimagined the Shadow in a four issue miniseries that was stylish, violent and laced with dark humor. Chaykin's version updated the character into the modern world, emphasizing his brutal, uncompromising nature. It was a radical departure from the radio program and arguably outpuld the Pulps, but it succeeded in revitalizing interest in the Shadow. [00:04:34] Speaker B: The popularity of Chaykin's reimagined version of the Shadow led to an ongoing DC comic book series written by Andrew Helfer. It took the character even further into absurdist, darkly comic territory, eventually killing off the Shadow and resurrecting him as a dismembered head of in a robot body. According to the rumor, Conde Nash, owner of the Shadow copyright, was aghast and demanded the immediate cancellation of the series. DC pulled the plug on the experimental series in January of 1989. Later that year, the publisher revived the character in the Shadow Strikes, a more traditional but far less memorable series set in the 1930s. [00:05:15] Speaker C: Fast forward to the 1990s. Hollywood was experiencing a pulp hero revival with period films like Dick Tracy and the Rocketeer. Universal Pictures hoped the Shadow would follow suit, launching a new and lucrative film franchise. They hired Russell Mulcahy, best known for his 1986 film Highlander, to direct with a script by David Kep, the writer behind two hits from the previous year, Jurassic park and Carlito's Way. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Alec Baldwin was cast as Lamont Cranston, a wealthy playboy hiding a dark past, reimagined in this film as a former opium warlord who learns mystical abilities in Tibet before returning to New York as the Shadow. Supporting him is a strong cast, including John Lone as the villainous Shiwon Khan, Penelope Ann Miller as a telepathic socialite Margo Lane, Ian McKellen as Margot's father, Dr. Reinhold Lane, Peter Boyle as Shrevey, and Tim Curry as well. Tim Curry. Despite the talent involved, the film failed to thrive at the box office and, appropriately enough, faded into the Shadows. [00:06:22] Speaker C: So is the Shadow an overlooked gem or just another Hollywood misfire? That's what we're here to discuss. [00:06:40] Speaker B: Okay, so let's dive in. Of course, if you haven't watched the movie yet, you should probably do that. I'm sure you have a pause button on whatever device. But here's the deal. I am so excited to have this discussion and I rewatched it again today. Of course, I've watched this movie a lot. This movie is a warm blanket of nostalgia and do I like it. Yes. There are so many caveats to what I just said. There's a lot to dislike about this, things that make me crazy, yada yada. But then there's so much to love about this movie. When I rewatched it this afternoon before this recording, I usually watch it with that. Yeah, this Pablum, right? I'm just going to have this movie on and enjoy my Saturday afternoon or whatever. And when I'm watching it today, I realize, oh, I'm watching a little more intensely, really paying attention, and went, oh, no, that doesn't. So there. [00:07:48] Speaker C: Have we ruined this for you? [00:07:49] Speaker B: No, not ruined it at all. But I became aware of things that I didn't care about before it became evident to me that I was like, oh, wait, what's that? And there's so much of it. But then again, as I said, I kept going back to. I still really like it. [00:08:08] Speaker A: So I want to tell listeners right now that this is surprising to me since we've been doing this podcast for eight years. We love old radio. We've talked about many, many, many episodes of the Shadow on the podcast, but we've never really in our personal lives discussed the Shadow. We never sat down. No one has done an intervention that said, you guys really need to sit down and talk about the Shadow. You're hurting people by not talking about the Shadow movie. [00:08:34] Speaker B: Some I statements, there are movies that will come on. I still watch television the old fashioned way. I have time now. What's on? Not like, oh, here. What shows am I currently. [00:08:48] Speaker C: I was gonna say I devoted this, but that's our archaic reference now too. [00:08:52] Speaker B: I just kind of flip through and go, oh, great, I'll watch this. And there are probably 30 movies that if they're on, yep, I'm watching that. Indiana Jones, right? If that's on, I'm watching it. If it's the Rocketeer, hell, I'll watch that. There's a bunch of movies like that. [00:09:11] Speaker A: I just can't believe that you do not embrace. Like, one of the only great things about living in the 21st century is that you don't have to be at the whim of whatever some Channel puts on at any given time. Like, that blows my mind. I love my favorite thing about living. I wish I can watch whatever I want. When I watch. [00:09:30] Speaker C: The one thing I miss about cable is just the TV roulette. Like, what's here? [00:09:35] Speaker B: I will tell you you that if I had any motivation, my biggest thing that I would change in this world is that there's only one toothbrush. I am so tired of the toothbrush aisle and all the choices, and I get overwhelmed. Could you just make a tooth? One toothbrush. [00:09:52] Speaker A: The entire world shares a toothbrush. [00:09:54] Speaker B: Yeah. No type of toothbrush, because you go to that toothbrush aisle. I feel that way sometimes about how many streaming options there are, and I have a subscription to all of them. And I can literally say, oh, I have two hours before I want to go to bed. What am I going to watch? And an hour or so of that can be spent trying to figure out what to watch. Consequently, if I just go to. Oh, and scroll down, I use. My cable is YouTube TV. So you have all the channels there. And I start with the local channels. Just go down that listen to. Oh, that's on. I'll watch that. [00:10:29] Speaker C: But the spirit way, I'm totally the same way. There's. Yeah, I can list movies. Like, if this is on, if I have the chance to watch this, I will. [00:10:35] Speaker A: And I'm different in that I enjoy personal freedom and choice. [00:10:39] Speaker B: Wow. Also, Josh, I don't know why I'm. [00:10:42] Speaker A: Being judgy about this random thing. It just amuses me. [00:10:44] Speaker C: It's like a genre of movie, like Silverado. [00:10:47] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:47] Speaker C: It's not even like, these are my favorite movies. It's the type of movie that it pleases me when I stumble upon it randomly. [00:10:54] Speaker B: Also, I like commercials. [00:10:56] Speaker A: Not watching hide DVDs around my house. So I'm like, wow, I found it. [00:11:00] Speaker B: I don't like commercials. I like commercials in the sense of, oh, good break. I get to take a break and go do something or whatever. I know I get to take a break. So I. I like the breaks in there. And that's because I was raised that way. And that's. [00:11:15] Speaker C: How do you get paid to watch things and get a little break? [00:11:18] Speaker B: I mean, I will say that 90% of the time when I go, well, what's on? As you all know, Law and Order will usually win. Or Antiques Roadshow. That wins a lot. [00:11:31] Speaker C: Wow. [00:11:32] Speaker B: It wins a lot. [00:11:33] Speaker C: Who are you? [00:11:34] Speaker B: Yeah. But if I see this on Back to the Shadow, I say, yep. Watching that, I became really aware today of how much missing Exposition probably ended up on the cutting room floor of this movie because there are scenes that go from this to that and you realize, oh, why are we here? Or that wasn't. You shouldn't know that information yet. Or how I know that they cut this movie. There's got to be so much exposition and information that didn't make it into this movie. Because I'll give you an example. All right, well, I'm going to go have a talk with Tim Curry. It's not his name. It should be as I'm going to talk. Right. Because that's all he's doing. I'm going to go talk with Tim Curry as the shadow. [00:12:28] Speaker A: He phrases it exactly like from the radio show. Not only that, but Alec Baldwin must have listened to it. The pauses. He says it exactly from the radio show. [00:12:40] Speaker B: Jump to. Tim Curry is on a dock somewhere getting into a giant metal ball. There's no explanation what this metal ball is, why he's there, why he's going there in the first place. The shadows inside there. He knows he's going to be inside this giant metal ball that we don't know what it does or what the hell this giant metal ball is and why. Why it fills up with water. Why does it. Why is there a lever that fills this. There's no explanation at all as to what the hell this thing is. Yes, it's a great scene where water's filling up and he gets shot and there's blood and Tim Curry escapes. I get it. And this is coming from, by the way, Mr. Get to the Castle. This movie gets to the castle so much so fast that. And I can probably bore you with 10 more moments where I went, oh, wait, she shouldn't know that they've cut the scene where she knows that. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's so much of that, but that one in particular really stands out. [00:13:39] Speaker A: You're right in that this was cut down a lot. [00:13:42] Speaker B: A lot, because. [00:13:43] Speaker A: Which I love. [00:13:44] Speaker B: Right. [00:13:45] Speaker A: I am not of your taste in that. I just hate the laborious two and a half hour slugfests of current superhero movies. So I think in comparison, while I totally concede that, you know, you could do a short movie and, and make sure you had all your exposition in place. So I'm not saying this is the only way to do that, but I liked how snappy this move from scene to scene to scene to scene. And each one was a interesting set piece. [00:14:12] Speaker B: What the hell was that giant ball? Why was he there? What did it do? Why did it fill up with water. [00:14:17] Speaker C: It's a place where you would test things that are used underwater. [00:14:20] Speaker B: Is that set up in the movie? That's what I'm getting at. All of a sudden, we were there. [00:14:24] Speaker A: Is that a government research center they discussed earlier. [00:14:28] Speaker B: So it's a giant ball of copper ball on the dock that. It's weird. Like there's a scene where somehow that wasn't introduced. I'm telling you, that got on the cutting room floor. [00:14:41] Speaker A: I totally agree. Yes. This scene was clearly cut down from a longer cut. There are other examples. [00:14:47] Speaker B: I just met a man today. I think I can read his mind. And the sad thing is, I'll never see him again. Cut to her walking into. Apparently Jonathan Winters lives. The place where he eats every night. [00:15:00] Speaker A: The Cobalt Club. From the Pulps. [00:15:02] Speaker B: Yeah. No, no, I'm not ripping this movie. Just hear me. I'm talking about the moments that I had. Wait a minute. I'm never gonna see. She walks in and says to him, are you gonna do anything about it? Number one, probably cut her having a discussion with her father where he's acting weird. We don't get to see that. Two, her going to the police and saying, hey, my father's acting weird. Do something about it. Just cut to her going, what are you going to do? Why aren't you doing anything about it? Three, she just got done saying, I'm never going to see that man again. No, no. Now you are. So obviously somewhere in that script, you did see him again. And because no one's. Your reaction should be, oh, it's you. I didn't think I'd ever see you again. My point is this. I'm nitpicky on that right now because it became really obvious to me how much was cut from this movie to keep it moving. Now there's other things I can talk about. Let's just say I told you all of them. [00:15:59] Speaker C: Okay. [00:15:59] Speaker B: And. And all the things that. About the movie, that bothered me. No, there's more, but I won't. [00:16:05] Speaker A: Wow. [00:16:06] Speaker B: Then you go back to this, wow, why do I still love this movie so much? Right. First of all, it's shot beautifully. It's really the period piece of it. It's beautifully shot. [00:16:17] Speaker C: Abduction design that. [00:16:18] Speaker A: Yeah, abduction design is gorgeous. [00:16:20] Speaker B: Gorgeous. [00:16:22] Speaker A: If you've read a shadow poem. If you have listened to the shadow connective narrative tissue is not its strong suit. So, like, I go into this. Not looking for that. [00:16:36] Speaker B: No, I wasn't either. [00:16:37] Speaker A: Aesthetic experience. So I. I'll concede any point. I probably didn't even pay attention to it. [00:16:42] Speaker B: Let me qualify this. I'm just telling you what became obvious to me. Paying really close attention. [00:16:47] Speaker C: But. [00:16:47] Speaker A: And also I go into these type of films. I mean, it's as true in 1994 as it is today. That any big budget Hollywood IP franchise film is intentionally a buffet. Yeah, it's a little bit of something for everyone. So I go in not thinking I'm gonna love it. Up and down I go in going, I hope there's enough stuff here that I like that I won't go home hangry, you know, and for me, this is a buffet, a shadow buffet in which I go home satisfied, even if I'm like, nope, I don't want any of that. And pass on to the. The next thing. [00:17:29] Speaker B: Do you know what the best thing about this movie is? Everybody involved obviously did their research because every single thing about the shadow is incorporated. The Rings, the. The Society of Helpers, Shrevey. You know what I mean? It's all in there. Like, everything about the shadows in there. [00:17:51] Speaker C: I will pivot on that. The way this is a repeat experience of Batman 1989, of going into that movie, which that did not have the same amount of predecessor of what a superhero movie is, but it was for a mass market trying to synthesize many radically different versions of what Batman is to sufficiently please a number of very different audience members. And succeeded or failed to whatever degree that this is. A lot of different ideas of what the shadow is, trying to put them together in something cohesive and unique, which certainly at the time it came out and I watched it and fell in love with it, I didn't appreciate. I mean, I didn't really understand what that challenge was for the creators and for the audience. And then to move on to that, some more of my just flat out opinions. Again, having watched this again recently without the hazy glow of being a young 20 something watching movies, this time through, some of the clunky dialogue, particularly early days between Lamont and Margot, really stood out of like, some of this dialogue is just. [00:18:57] Speaker B: Yes. [00:18:57] Speaker C: It's not even like fun kind of pastiche. Like that's just awkward. It picks up between the two of them as it goes. And beyond all else, I think John Lone steals this movie. He's so good. [00:19:11] Speaker A: He's very good. I don't think he steals it because I think everybody is so good. That is the biggest strength of this film. Yeah, I think everyone is amazing. And I think Alec Baldwin does not get enough credit for being an amazing Lamont Cranston. And he understands where to wink at the audience and where to play it straight. And that voice is a radio voice. [00:19:35] Speaker B: Yep. [00:19:36] Speaker C: The other highlight for me, I mean, not to disagree with that, but the whole storyline with Tim Curry, like, that's really core shadow storytelling there. [00:19:48] Speaker B: Yep. [00:19:48] Speaker A: That is everything to me in this film is Tim Curry laughing maniacally, foaming at the mouth of saliva with a Tommy gun, just shooting maniacally everywhere, all at once. [00:20:02] Speaker C: It's the holiday of, like, I'm not under my control. I'm just getting paid. I'll be king of America. [00:20:08] Speaker B: Yeah. The Tim Curry character is a much more traditional radio character that the Shadow would be hunting down. And yet we have him and we have the descendant of Genghis Khan. So you really have two villains in this movie that in. In a sense. And you say everybody's performance is great. I would say in this order of greatness, the dad from Elf. [00:20:36] Speaker A: I knew he would get a name check. [00:20:39] Speaker B: Followed by Neelix from Voyager, who shoots himself. [00:20:43] Speaker C: Good Whistler. [00:20:45] Speaker B: Oh, by the way. So he's on the screen today. And I went, oh, every time I watch this movie, I can't place it. Where do I know this guy? So today I went, I gotta figure this out. And I went, right. Because it doesn't have all the makeup on. That's where I know you from. But I finally figured that out. But the casting. [00:21:05] Speaker C: Sorry to interrupt, but the casting of Jonathan Winters. [00:21:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:08] Speaker C: So much fun. [00:21:08] Speaker B: It's like, so much fun. [00:21:10] Speaker C: Smart or. [00:21:10] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:11] Speaker C: But it's. [00:21:11] Speaker A: No, but if you. If you make the decision. [00:21:13] Speaker B: He's not great. [00:21:17] Speaker A: If you make the decision that you're going to do the Shadow that switches between, like, dark pulpiness and broad humor. [00:21:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:27] Speaker A: I mean, give yourself Jonathan Winters. Right. [00:21:30] Speaker B: That's a great point. [00:21:30] Speaker A: And the uncle thing is made up. And I honestly don't understand the narrative significance of making him uncle. But that's an obscure deep pulp cut. Because Commissioner Weston left for a while in the pulps for some reason. I don't know why you would have a character leave, because it's not like an actor has left and can't come in and play him. [00:21:50] Speaker C: Lost the rights to Weston. [00:21:51] Speaker B: Dammit. [00:21:52] Speaker A: Bart was his first name, but Wainwright was the replacement commissioner for a number of years in the pulps. And then Weston came back. [00:22:00] Speaker B: Was he the uncle in the pulps? [00:22:01] Speaker A: Nope. [00:22:02] Speaker B: Okay. [00:22:03] Speaker A: Just an addition there. And I don't know if they felt like it's a shortcut to get them talking together in the scene for a reason. For Lamont Cranston. To. Because we have often commented in the radio show how like, wow, they just have this free pass to come waltzing in to the police department whenever they want and chat up the hey, can. [00:22:22] Speaker C: We investigate this crime with you? We're out for a date. [00:22:24] Speaker A: So maybe that was it. That by making them related, that was a shortcut to saying why they spent time together and Lamont could hear about cases going on. [00:22:34] Speaker B: We. I mentioned. I really love how they took all the canon and folded it really all into one. He's got guns, all the different canons. And then they took some liberties on some stuff like the uncle. The one liberty they took that I actually think is better and love is that Margo knows who he is because she has some telepathic ability to also see what people are thinking, which would explain everything. That she exposed him at one point because she could. And he can't control her like he can everybody else. I know that's not part of it. [00:23:16] Speaker A: I think it's. [00:23:17] Speaker B: But I think it's a great addition. [00:23:18] Speaker A: I think it's a great shortcut of how these guys come together and how they like the Shadow, who is, generally speaking, I'm in charge. I saved you, so I own you. I mean, that's basically what he says to Dr. Tammy. And that is straight from the pulps. I saved your life, so now you owe your life to me. So the only way for that pulp version, the Shadow, to have an actual, like semi equal relationship with someone like Margo Lane, is for her to have something on her. [00:23:50] Speaker B: Yeah, she has. She knows who he is. [00:23:52] Speaker A: I thought it was a brilliant shortcut. [00:23:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:54] Speaker A: Before we go any farther, I want to say I think it's difficult to be a purist with a character like the Shadow who is not like a piece of literature that stands as a monolith by itself. He is commodified art. He was designed to make money in one format. And then he made, oh, we can make more money off him. So they. They move him to. From a radio announcer to a pulp and then they radically, radically reinterpret him to move him to make money from the Pulp magazine to a radio show. So there's just a tradition of reinterpretation. In fact, I would be disappointed if they didn't pick up a bunch of these old pieces and then also add. [00:24:41] Speaker C: Something new in making changing adaptations. I think of Superman a lot of trying to guess is this an adaptation that will stick and people will feel it's inappropriate and it feels right or if it feels wrong. So Superman like when he started, he couldn't fly. There was no kryptonite, there was no X ray vision. These are all things that I think they all came out of the radio show. And because of the popularity of the radio show or whatever, they felt right, and they stuck and they're there forever now. [00:25:09] Speaker A: Because I'm sure more people listen to the radio show than read the comic book at that time. So they were also the things that more people recognized about Superman. [00:25:18] Speaker B: Let's talk about this added piece that I'm going to tell you right up front. I don't think it was necessary for this movie. In fact, if they had cut it, they would had more room for some of these exposition pieces. We got to have the backstory that he travels to the Far east to learn this mystical ability. Him being a horrifying warlord actually is a detriment. Because first of all, we don't need to know that. It's not necessary, it's not imperative to any narrative of what's going on. We just need to know where he learned it in the Far East. But then the other part is it actually opens another door. And that is. Wait a minute. If you're going to tell me that story, then how the hell did he end up becoming a warlord here? I want to know that. How did this American end up becoming revered here and such a horrifying killer? My point being is not necessary. We could have started there, showed him. [00:26:19] Speaker A: Part of the lost generation. He's an expat who just became an opium warlord. [00:26:24] Speaker B: But they didn't tell us that. [00:26:25] Speaker A: Oh, you can fill it in. [00:26:28] Speaker B: I don't like knowing that he was a murderous, horrible person. [00:26:32] Speaker A: So what I divide this movie into is three buckets. What I love, what I don't mind, and what I don't like. [00:26:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:26:40] Speaker A: That's probably pretty much true of all of these IP Franchise. [00:26:44] Speaker C: Sure. [00:26:44] Speaker A: Right again. Back to the buffet metaphor. And I honestly go into them expecting very little. It's like if I showed up at Old country buffet and 3/4 of their buffet was dedicated to sushi, I'd be like, this is the best place ever. Because I expect to just get mystery meat and pie, flavored pie or whatever. [00:27:03] Speaker B: They have, and I'd be in shell. [00:27:05] Speaker C: For like the mashed potato bar, like 18 different types of mashed potatoes. That'd be awesome. [00:27:11] Speaker A: My point is, I go into this with lowered expectations. Like, I'm not gonna like the totality of this because I know what it has to do to support itself. It has to appeal to Everybody, yes. Not just me. That being said, as an origin story, reduced it, like, seven minutes of screen time. I thought it was pretty cool. And I would put it in the I don't mind it bucket. Not that I love it or hate it. And there was some fun moments. If you're a fan of the Pulps, I like that they did the, like, yellow scare baiting old trope where they kept Lamont in shadow and showed his long, pointed fingernails. And for that moment, you go, it's gone. [00:27:54] Speaker B: Right. [00:27:55] Speaker A: That, I thought was pretty cool. [00:27:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:58] Speaker C: I also like the through line. I mean, the storyline that he struggles against his darker side and then put their money in my mouth is. He's got a real dark side. Yeah. So when he's resting against this darker side, it's really there. And the thing with the knife, I think that's one of the most interesting, subtle parts of the story, is when he finally realizes this knife is just mirroring me. [00:28:20] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:21] Speaker A: And also, giving him this evil shadow self allows them the excuse to do. One of my favorite things about this movie and when I showed up in the theater, my jaw just dropped into my lap, is that they reproduced in makeup the shadow from the pulp covers. [00:28:40] Speaker B: From the pulp covers. [00:28:41] Speaker A: I could not believe that I'm one of those nerds that just was crushed by the 1989 Batman. So I went into this with, like, the lowest expectations of anything that would reflect what I knew about the character. So I was so happy when I saw this film originally. I couldn't believe it, particularly for, like. [00:29:00] Speaker C: Handsome actor Alec Baldwin. [00:29:01] Speaker A: Yeah. That he was going to put on a bunch of makeup and a big schnoz and hide himself in that. I was like, this is a love letter to the Pulps. Yes, it is not a pure version of the Pulps, but you'd have to be an idiot to expect that. And honestly, the purest version of this would be just a film where the shadow is a narrator. That's the original version of the shadow. [00:29:26] Speaker B: And you gotta let it go. Why does he need to get a big nose? You gotta let it go. There's no need for him to get a big nose. [00:29:32] Speaker A: But that is, though, what I was talking about, that origin is that they speak of it as if it's. Whether it's literal or poetic, he calls up his dark side and Monstrosity. Yeah. And so that darker, scarier face represents him being able to harness and use for good his Shadow self. As a fan of the Shadow, I'm like, okay, you don't need to explain it all. But as a knower of Hollywood studio films, you do have to explain it all. And as an explanation, I think it works and justifies some things that I really like. And before we move on, to me, this film has four tentpoles that I would forgive it. Anything in between. That is the scene on the bridge in the beginning. Oh, yes, perfectly done. We can talk about it more. The two scenes when Khan and Lamont Cranston just talk to each other. Those are beautiful. I would do shoot the Pistols with the bullets. I would love a reboot of the Odd Couple with just Cranston and Khan together trying to work it out. And as we already discussed, the scene with Tim Curry losing his mind with the Tommy gun that is like Chef's Kiss. Everything I want from the Shadow, combining both the pulp and the radio aesthetic. Both arch and both pulpy. A little ridiculous. I mean, yes. The reason I included in this intro the stuff about the 80s comic books, that's my sweet spot of the Shadow. They are ridiculous and absurd and they're campy and they're tonally weird and they shift. And that's what I wanted of the Shadow. But I wanted to sort of set up in the intro that that failed miserably, even with a comic book artist. So I had no expectation going into this film that I would see anything resembling that. [00:31:31] Speaker C: Can I give you a little personal anecdote about the Shadow comic book from back in the day? It started out as a four issue limited run by Harold Shaken. At the time it was coming out, my dad and I would go to a monthly flea market in Rapid City, South Dakota, get comic books from a distributor. And so we were kind of like the open once a month comic book shop in town. So people like, if the few comic book collectors there were in the area would come to this flea market, come to our little table, get their new issues and go on their way. [00:32:02] Speaker A: You're cooler than you've ever been to me. [00:32:04] Speaker B: Right? [00:32:06] Speaker C: It gets better here. So when I think it was the second issue in this run was released, the printer tore a rip in a lot of the covers of number two of this run. So it was an incredible, unexpectedly limited run of issues become unexpectedly very valuable. So we're at the flea market with ones we got, and a collector came by who would not long after this open his own store and kind of supplant us, which was fine, nice guy, but he pointed out in front of a bunch of people sporting, speculating at the store like, oh, this is gonna be very valuable. It's limited run and suddenly, like, we're gone. So I think I still have one, but you can tell the difference between the first printing and the second printing of it. So for that anecdote, not just I enjoyed the Shadow. Cause I did. But like, this is kind of a magical comic book series for me. Cause it had this experience with. [00:33:00] Speaker A: Was magical to me because I grew up listening to these old radio cassettes of the Shadow. And I thought, nobody knows. This is just some weird thing. No kid at school has ever known who the Shadow was. I've been beaten up for talking about the show. And then to see that show up in the comic book stand was just again, jaw dropped and shaken's a great match. I should not have read it at the age I did. It's very explicit, very violent, very misogynist. Chaykin was not a feminist. [00:33:30] Speaker B: Everything you guys said real quick. I have all the Shadow comic books. I have never read one from the 80s. [00:33:37] Speaker A: There are a lot of Shadow comics. The Dynamite ones from the 2000s or the 70s. DC. [00:33:43] Speaker B: 70S. DC's. [00:33:44] Speaker A: Okay, those are good too. But those are not the. But I got them Wild ones. [00:33:48] Speaker B: I've never. I've never read them. I collected them and I never got around to reading. [00:33:52] Speaker A: Read them. [00:33:52] Speaker B: I'm going to 2. Disappointment in seeing something that you love in the movie theater. And you were relieved because your. Your Shadow was really good, right? Like, okay, great. The exact opposite. When I saw Johnny Depp's Lone Ranger, it was a horrifying experience. It was so terrible. And hopefully we do it on this podcast someday during this movie morals thing. And I will laugh. [00:34:19] Speaker A: I've never seen it. What if I just love it? [00:34:21] Speaker B: Oh, my God, you will not. You will not. First of all, I don't think, unlike the Shadow with Baldwin here, I don't think anybody involved with the movie did any research. It stars Arnie Hammer. Oh, it does. [00:34:35] Speaker C: It does. I'll tell you about him later. [00:34:42] Speaker B: Okay, so Arnie Hammer's in that too. Last, your four pillars. You know, mine are different, but I love your four pillars. But every street scene is so beautifully shot and so wonderful. [00:34:56] Speaker A: The cinematography. [00:34:58] Speaker B: Cinematography, it's a period piece and it's really well done. Period piece. Like there's details in it. If you go to the crowd shots and start looking past what you're supposed to be looking at, it's beautifully detailed. [00:35:09] Speaker A: Well, it's also period in the filmmaking in that. I'm sorry, I'm gonna interrupt just. Cause I'm right on topic. I'll Let you get back. But like the bridge scene I love because it's clearly this perspective backdrop at the end of the bridge. It's like 1930s studio bound, like Hollywood filmmaking. And that makes it all the more gorgeous. [00:35:31] Speaker B: Look at 1930s Times Square. Remember that shot of Times Square? If you look too close, you're like, oh, it's a painted backdrop, but it's really well done. [00:35:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:40] Speaker B: Another pillar of this movie for me is how they. The. They didn't have CG back then. Well, they kind of did. What do we call it? Special effect. The special effect of him appearing when he was a shadow, just this wisp of him before he punched a guy is just so really well done. [00:36:01] Speaker C: I. I wanted. Because there was CGI in this that at the time was the cutting edge. Like this was amazing breakthroughs. Which are now the points that look the most dated. Yeah. But other like, particularly the way they animate the shadow. But some of the simplest things they did stand at the strongest. And another one for me was when they pin his shadow. [00:36:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:36:20] Speaker C: Walks out of the shadow. [00:36:21] Speaker B: He walks out of the shadow. [00:36:22] Speaker C: And then he keeps having to nurse that wound where he got shot. And it's like, that's super cool. [00:36:27] Speaker A: Even that scene that had no explanation, as Eric pointed out, in the water tank. [00:36:33] Speaker B: Is that what it was? You don't know. [00:36:35] Speaker A: Reminiscent of. [00:36:36] Speaker C: It's like a reverse bathysphere. [00:36:38] Speaker B: Correct. [00:36:40] Speaker A: Several radio dramas, there's a. I think it's Society of the Living Dead where the shadow ends up trapped. I think it's a tomb, but it's filling with water. He doesn't use telepathy, but he uses the shortwave radio that Margo's always tuned to to call her. And she has to let him out before it finishes filling with water. [00:36:59] Speaker C: No, to Margot. And she falls off her chair. [00:37:03] Speaker A: But there's also a radio episode in which Orson Welles makes telepathic contact with Margo. No shortwave radio. I believe it's Hounds in the Hills, which we haven't listened to. But it's one I've mentioned several times because the shadow is chased up a tree by a bunch of dog. Think that's the one where he's like, margot, help me. Don't ask. [00:37:24] Speaker B: I'm caught in a tree. [00:37:25] Speaker A: Bring some bacon. [00:37:29] Speaker C: Okay. We've mentioned it in parallel to the Shadow because it's of the same era, but just to give it some praise. The Rocketeer. [00:37:36] Speaker B: Yes. [00:37:36] Speaker C: People for a long time as a comic book fan are like, what's your favorite comic book adaptation? For a long time, the answer was the Rocketeer. [00:37:42] Speaker A: Yeah, it's really good. It is an underappreciated film. Yes. And I do think overall, the Shadow is underappreciated. It has some. Well, first of all, I want to mention the thing that I hate the most about this is when the 90s sex jokes creep in. [00:37:59] Speaker B: Yes. [00:38:00] Speaker A: That's the worst. Like, next time you can be on top. I am psychedelic, well endowed. All those are like, oh, that's the same as like Batman, where it's like you'll need a long lens to take this picture. Like, it was just this weird thing in the late 80s and early 90s where it's like, we're going to make superhero comics adult by putting these bad. [00:38:18] Speaker C: Sexy jokes, you know, action hero beats of like, you need to say the pithy thing if you beat somebody up. [00:38:25] Speaker A: And at the same time, there's some other legitimately funny lines. I really. It's mainly Alec Baldwin's delivery of it, but when he is in the restaurant with Khan where he's like, you're talking about the US of A. Pal I love. So arch and just that he shows up and they're wearing the exact same suit after the. Where do you get your suits from? You are a barbarian. Thank you. And for people who may not know it, almost every element of Khan's plot, which is probably why it's incoherent, is just lifted randomly from the pulps. The beryllium sphere is from a pulp. The living knife is from a pulp. The hotel headquarters, I don't think in the pulps, he makes it invisible, which I thought was a cool touch in the film, is from the pulps. The very first Khan appearance, the very first chapter of that book, has a character who's in a hotel room and there's a blinking electronic sign outside his hotel room that hypnotizes him. Khan hypnotizes him through that sign. [00:39:30] Speaker B: Like the llama. [00:39:31] Speaker A: Like the llama. And that's a funny joke. I'd climb a mountain for a llama. Especially in the context of the shadow. That is a joke. And it balances out some of the really bad ones in here. [00:39:43] Speaker B: In your personal writing, you do a commercial for Lucky Llama chewing tobacco. [00:39:49] Speaker A: Yeah. I rewatched this film and went, oh, no. That was some subconscious thing I had forgotten because I was thinking the same thing. Well, Camel, Lucky Strikes, putting him together. Yeah. [00:40:02] Speaker C: It was a moment, an acting moment that I really enjoyed is when Lamont sees the hotel and it's like a callback to the first. The first time he has his eyes unshadowed, his mind unshadowed, and just. It renews that wonder of. I can see it. No one else can. [00:40:22] Speaker B: There's a great thing they do that I believe was lifted from Todd Browning's Dracula. When they change the light on him and his eyes get lit up. [00:40:36] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just all that film noir stuff where the use of shadows. [00:40:40] Speaker B: Yeah, the use of shadows. But that's what they did, you know, they would shine a flashlight in Lugosi's. [00:40:45] Speaker A: Eyes and he'd be like, bleh. [00:40:48] Speaker B: But they kind of got the same effect and it kind of reminded me of that. [00:40:52] Speaker A: Yeah, it's back to that, like, perspective backdrop for the bridge. That's just gorgeous. And did you guys pick up on the really somewhat far removed Orson Welles reference? We got the lady from Shanghai Climax in the hall of mirrors from Orson. [00:41:10] Speaker B: Oh, right, right, right, right, right. [00:41:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And that one. A little nerdy information. I don't know if you read it, but was it an earthquake? Some natural disaster destroyed all their mirrors, which is why that scene is so weirdly short. And it's like, oh, we're in a hall of mirrors. Okay. Now they all blow up and I stick a shard through your head. That's one of the things I don't like, that telekinesis that comes out of nowhere. But again, everything I don't like is rescued by something else. I love the scene of Khan lobotomized. Khan lobotomize Khan trying to hypnotize people with a big sticker on his head. [00:41:45] Speaker B: Lobo Khan. [00:41:48] Speaker A: Love it. Back to your original point. He is so good in this. John Lone. [00:41:52] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. Not just John, but all the condiments of. Like when he tells that cabbie, like, you need gas. [00:42:00] Speaker A: Oh, yes. [00:42:00] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:42:01] Speaker C: Huh. Must be my lucky day. [00:42:04] Speaker B: Yep. That guy's a famous character actor, too. I see him in every. [00:42:07] Speaker A: I can't remember. Almost everyone he kills is a famous character. [00:42:10] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:42:11] Speaker A: The guy who jumps off the Empire State Building. [00:42:14] Speaker C: The sailor. [00:42:15] Speaker A: Yeah, he's a great character actor. He's in Mulholland Drive. Lynch's best film. [00:42:19] Speaker C: It could have been easy to make these well tread territory grounds of like, you're gonna control somebody's mind and they're gonna do something against their will. But it was just an interesting way to deliver all that. And I have to say, because something I experience it, it is now weird and awkward to see a film with Alec Baldwin and a gun. [00:42:38] Speaker B: Tim now that's in my head. [00:42:39] Speaker C: I bring it up only because if anyone else who has watched the movie recently, losing that, like, at least one of us also, like, oh, that's, you know, not to put any commentary on any of that issue. [00:42:51] Speaker B: Right. [00:42:52] Speaker A: He was found completely innocent in a court of law, a civil court of law, in that. That was not his doing. No. [00:42:59] Speaker C: Yes. I. [00:43:00] Speaker A: He's an awful dad. [00:43:02] Speaker C: I love Alec Baldwin. Yeah. For his whole career, many things he's done. I don't know him personally, so maybe he's a horrible person, but that's just such a horrible thing to happen at all. [00:43:12] Speaker B: Right. But it reminded you of it. [00:43:15] Speaker C: Yeah, it popped into my head. [00:43:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:17] Speaker A: I started watching this and went, wow, Alec Baldwin has aged horribly. And then I did the math on when it was made of, like, like, oh, no, this was 30 years ago. I've aged horribly. [00:43:30] Speaker B: He's so horrible. [00:43:32] Speaker A: Like. Like, this is just that long ago. I felt like, oh, this movie is tops, 20 years old. [00:43:38] Speaker B: This movie is not a movie that you go around going, oh, here's a movie you should see. This is a specific audience that I would recommend this movie to do, you know, like, oh, I know you well enough to say that I think you would like the Shadow, or if they don't know anything about the Shadow. I'm not sure it would fly with people who aren't fans of the Shadow. I don't know. But for those of us who are fans of the Shadow, this is a classic, wonderful, warm blanket of fun. Beautiful movie. It's great for us. I cannot make a determination about this movie outside of that. I don't know what the rest of the world would think of this without any knowledge or passion for the Shadow at all. [00:44:25] Speaker A: We are the target audience. [00:44:27] Speaker B: Right. It may be terrible to everybody else. It probably was, because they don't know anything about it. The only thing I will say is I really wish someday someone would find all of that film they edited out and put it back in and let me see that director's cut. [00:44:42] Speaker A: I bet it's fun. [00:44:43] Speaker B: I bet it's. It explains a lot more. [00:44:46] Speaker A: I read somewhere that the script obviously went through several drafts, and there was one that they thought was too dark. And then, oh, there's one that's too comedic. And so they landed on the script that is both really dark. Like, there's that shot of Alec Baldwin as the opium warlord with, like, blood on his mouth. Like, he's, like, ripped out somebody's throat with his teeth. And then you have Jonathan, Jonathan Winters. Just being like, oh, these aren't the droids you're looking for. [00:45:17] Speaker B: And then Neelix shoots himself in the head. Yeah, that's a brutal scene. [00:45:22] Speaker C: It's super fun still today of like, if you're interested in the shadow, there's a lot that could have gone wrong with this that went right so in your same sort of three buckets. Like, it has a high batting average and so much better than it could have been. It's much better than your fears might have outlaid also. But when it was released at the time, again, comic book geek, sort of like, this was one of the best superhero movies ever made. This is before Blade. This is before Spider Man, X Men. [00:45:54] Speaker A: This is one of those weird films that gets just sandwiched in between these two perspectives. And that is the. I've read so many rips on this film from these pulp purists who just can't stand any changes at all. To think, well, background of the shadow is that he was Kent Allard and that he took on Lamont Cranston's name as well as all these other, like this convoluted pulp backstory that would never possibly make it into a film. And they ignore the fact that this is 75% of this film is straight from the pulps. And yes, it's got a lot of other. [00:46:30] Speaker B: And a lot of other adaptations like this wouldn't have had that much no see Lone Ranger, Johnny Depp. [00:46:37] Speaker A: And ironically, these purists hate it. And because it's not pulp enough. And I think the general audience probably didn't like it because it had so much pulp in it. And they were like, what? Why does Alec Baldwin look like that? And so it's this irony of, like, they tried to please both sides and failed. Maybe there's some sort of lesson here, but maybe. [00:47:00] Speaker C: Happy. [00:47:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I loved it in my three buckets. The bucket of stuff I love in this is much, much, much heavier than the what I don't mind and what I don't like about it. So classic, classic 90s superhero film. My favorite 90s superhero film, aside from Rocketeer. Aside from the Rocketeer. They tie. I liked it so much better than Tim Burton's Batman originally. I haven't re watched Tim Burton's Batman in a while, but last time I watched it, I was like, I think Batman Returns is better, but me too. We'll save that for another episode of Morals on movies.