Episode 395: The Roman

[00:00:16] Speaker A: The mysterious old radio listening society podcast. Welcome to the Mysterious Old Radio Listening Society, a podcast dedicated to suspense, crime and horror stories from the golden age of radio. I'm Eric. [00:00:35] Speaker B: I'm Tim. [00:00:36] Speaker C: And I'm Joshua. [00:00:37] Speaker A: We love mysterious old time radio stories, but do they stand the test of time? That's what we're here to find out. [00:00:43] Speaker B: This week I brought the Roman. To the best of our knowledge, it is the only surviving episode of a series we have not featured before. The Croupier. [00:00:51] Speaker A: We don't know a lot about this short lived series which ran for eight episodes on ABC from September 21 to November 16, 1949, but the croupier was written and directed by Milton Geiger. Each show is introduced with a croupier who spins the wheel of fate for a character in the story. And listeners are invited to place their bets on the tale that is to follow. We think that's how it went each time, but there's just one episode, so maybe we're wrong. [00:01:20] Speaker C: The Roman was the first episode in the series, and it features horror icon Vincent Price as the title character. Price had an extensive career on the radio, including appearances on suspense and escape, and notably portrayed the title character in the saint from 1947 to 1951. [00:01:40] Speaker B: So it's time to place your bets. Let's listen to the Roman from the croupier. First broadcast September 21, 1949. [00:01:47] Speaker A: It's late at night and a chill has set in. You're alone and the only light you see is coming from an antique radio. Listen to the sounds coming from the speaker. Listen to the music. And listen to the voices. [00:02:10] Speaker D: Place your bets. [00:02:19] Speaker E: The American Broadcasting Company presents the Croupier with gripping stories of man's eternal conflict with fate. Written and directed by Milton Geer and tonight, starring Mr. Vincent Price as the Roman. [00:02:43] Speaker D: Madame, place your bet. I am the copier. I spin the wheel of life. You, the players, make your fortune, your future, what you will. It is for you to choose the path. Jealousy, envy, hatred, fear, happiness, love, peace. These are the dark and the bright colors of the soul. So, mes dame, the wheel of life spins. Place your bets. 13 black. I have won. E 1. [00:03:41] Speaker F: A rather unusual player of my right, the Roman. [00:03:45] Speaker D: Yes, a Roman warrior in brass helmet and steel armor. Here at my wheel of fate. [00:03:52] Speaker F: Now. Oh, but many kinds from many times. [00:03:56] Speaker D: Come to play against me. What is his desperate chance, this armored soldier from another age? [00:04:08] Speaker F: Listen. Listen to his thoughts. [00:04:11] Speaker D: Mirth, peace, redemption. [00:04:16] Speaker G: God's let me die. [00:04:18] Speaker F: He asks for peace, redemption, death. [00:04:23] Speaker D: When others plead for life. What does he mean? Why this dark choice? [00:04:27] Speaker F: Let see. Go with him to another place than this. The ocean night fog off the coast of California. A great ship stands motionless in the milky sea. [00:04:46] Speaker D: On the deck stands a solitary figure. The fog is thick. [00:04:50] Speaker F: Yet he knows that two people are in the water, tired of swimming limp in their life preservers. He knows. [00:05:10] Speaker D: O ye gods of war and peace that guarded over imperial Rome. Mercy. I have warred and you have smiled upon me. [00:05:21] Speaker G: Grant me God's peace. [00:05:24] Speaker F: Then. [00:05:25] Speaker D: A man and a woman float upon the sea. Let her have mercy upon thy captain. [00:05:32] Speaker G: Grant me redemption. Let her have free pity. Upon my age, long suffering, let her redeem me. God. [00:05:49] Speaker F: We've been in the water for hours, Lona and I, ever since a sudden squall had swamped our cabin cruiser off San Clemente. In taking the trip, I had hoped once again that by being together and vastly alone, my wife and I would be drawn together, that the barrier between us might melt. But no. Dennis had always been there in her mind, in her heart. And I, her husband, would never replace the memory of Dennis. The very destruction of our boat had seemed a token. That further effort was useless. I don't know how long we've been in the water when that immense hulk loomed out of the fog. A ship. [00:06:39] Speaker G: A ship. [00:06:40] Speaker H: Where? I don't. [00:06:41] Speaker F: Straight ahead, anchored. [00:06:44] Speaker G: Ahoy, ship. Ahoy there. [00:06:52] Speaker H: No answer. [00:06:53] Speaker G: Ahoy there. Standby for survivors. [00:07:00] Speaker H: Nothing. [00:07:01] Speaker G: Ahoy there. Survivors overside. [00:07:07] Speaker H: What's the matter with them? [00:07:09] Speaker F: I don't know. This is queer. I don't know. [00:07:18] Speaker H: Kirk. Think dropped us a rock Bladder in time, too. [00:07:22] Speaker F: Come on, let's get out of this. We seemed to climb for miles before we reached the top of the ladder and the deck of the silent ship. No one greeted us. No one. [00:07:43] Speaker H: And not a light showing the wide. [00:07:46] Speaker F: Unobstructed expanse of deck. The great size of the vessel slowly forced one bewildering conviction upon me. We were on an aircraft carrier. [00:08:02] Speaker H: Aircraft carrier? [00:08:03] Speaker F: Got to be. [00:08:04] Speaker H: What would an aircraft carrier be doing hiding out in the fog in peacetime? [00:08:10] Speaker F: I don't know. [00:08:12] Speaker H: And where is everybody? [00:08:14] Speaker F: I don't know. [00:08:15] Speaker D: Know. [00:08:16] Speaker F: Follow me, but watch yourself. Stay close. [00:08:19] Speaker H: Where to? [00:08:20] Speaker F: Below the captain's quarters. Somebody must be on board. Here. Maybe this will be it. Stop here. There's some light showing around this bulkhead door. [00:08:45] Speaker H: Knock. [00:08:46] Speaker F: Here goes. [00:08:51] Speaker H: Again. [00:08:51] Speaker F: I can't understand it. [00:08:54] Speaker H: Knock again. Kirk. [00:08:56] Speaker F: Yeah? [00:09:00] Speaker H: Nothing. [00:09:02] Speaker F: We're going in anyhow. [00:09:03] Speaker H: Be careful. [00:09:08] Speaker D: Anybody home? Hello. [00:09:11] Speaker E: In there. [00:09:13] Speaker H: It's empty. [00:09:14] Speaker D: Come on. [00:09:19] Speaker F: Sound ship shaped and Deserted Kirk. [00:09:25] Speaker H: Look at this. [00:09:27] Speaker F: Find something on the desk. [00:09:30] Speaker H: This. This parchment scroll. [00:09:33] Speaker F: Parchment scroll, Yellow with age. [00:09:38] Speaker H: Yes, and someone's been reading it. You see, it's held down by weights top and bottom to keep it unrolled. [00:09:45] Speaker F: It's written in Latin, very indistinct. [00:09:49] Speaker H: But can you read it? [00:09:51] Speaker F: I think so. Ye who have now read the manifold curses that. Lorna, this is amazing. In demonology, this parchment is known as as the Malediction scroll. No, its very existence has been questioned. But here it is on a modern aircraft carrier. The parchment of the curses. [00:10:19] Speaker H: Kirk, read it. [00:10:21] Speaker F: Let's see. Ye who have read the manifold curses that rest upon the bones of evil, know now the great curse. There is a Roman who in the time of the Emperor Hadrian, was a warrior of the first javelin of centurions. And this centurion, this captain of captains, did commit this black deed. Smiling, showing the hand of friendship, he did treacherously murder his friend and dearest benefactor. And when this act was done, a darkness fell, and with it the curse. Let him, the Roman, never rest, even after life, but let him forever roam the earth to haunt the scenes of treachery wherever treachery in any manner has befallen, until one thing only free him, which he the Roman, knows. So be it. That's all. [00:11:41] Speaker H: It's like a dream. It is a dream, isn't it? [00:11:50] Speaker F: Here's the ship's log on the desk. And listen to these entries. Is there no pity, no bomb in Gilead? And the next? It goes on forever. [00:12:04] Speaker H: Strange. [00:12:05] Speaker F: And the last entry? Torment. Torment. And that's all. [00:12:12] Speaker H: But what does it mean? Whose ship is it? What nation? [00:12:17] Speaker F: I don't know. [00:12:17] Speaker H: Who wrote in that law? [00:12:19] Speaker F: I don't know. I wrote Kirk. The bulkhead door slammed shut behind us and we turned. A man stood across the cabin, a man who wore the plumed brass helmet, the steel armor and broadsword and the scarlet cloak of a centurion in the legions of Publius hadrianus, almost 2000 years before. I wrote. [00:13:05] Speaker D: Who are you? You do not know? [00:13:08] Speaker F: Tell me. [00:13:09] Speaker D: There is a Roman who in the time of the Emperor Hadrian. [00:13:13] Speaker G: Oh, no. [00:13:14] Speaker F: So be it. [00:13:15] Speaker D: See here. [00:13:16] Speaker F: This is enough of trumped up mystery and clowning and rented armor. [00:13:19] Speaker D: I tell you, I am that captain of the Maledictions. It was I who threw you the ladder. [00:13:26] Speaker F: No other. Who else is on this ship? No other. [00:13:30] Speaker H: It is a dream. [00:13:31] Speaker D: Dream without end. A timeless wandering without let or surcease or tippy. When you wake, consider how you dreams of the accursed Roman, rest well, you who can rest. [00:14:04] Speaker H: Kirk. Kirk, it isn't true. It's. It's. [00:14:08] Speaker F: It's a dream. We just go to sleep in the bunks here and very likely wake up in the bunks of our cabin cruiser. [00:14:16] Speaker H: I don't know. I hope so. [00:14:31] Speaker D: Woman. [00:14:32] Speaker H: Yes. [00:14:33] Speaker D: Listen to me. The Roman. You know my destiny. From the scroll of the curse passes to haunt the scenes of monstrous infamy and mischief. Though I be dust on some forgotten battlefield or clay in moldering catacombs forgotten, yet must I walk the earth and tread the sea to haunt with my unhappy ghost the scenes of treachery. [00:15:02] Speaker H: Go away. Go, I say. [00:15:04] Speaker F: Pity me. [00:15:06] Speaker D: For only through the true compassion of a woman hurt by treachery may deliverance come. For crime against the race of man is crime against woman, the mother of the race. You, woman, who have suffered loss by treachery. [00:15:22] Speaker H: You can save me. No. [00:15:24] Speaker F: Pity. [00:15:25] Speaker H: Murder. [00:15:26] Speaker G: Mercy. [00:15:26] Speaker H: Yes, yes, I've pity you. [00:15:33] Speaker C: Go. [00:15:35] Speaker H: Useless. [00:15:37] Speaker D: Others have said I pity you and wept. The terror moves their lips as it moves yours. [00:15:43] Speaker G: And I am captive still. [00:15:46] Speaker D: Useless. [00:15:49] Speaker F: Useless. [00:15:52] Speaker D: Useless. [00:15:53] Speaker H: Useless. Useless. [00:15:57] Speaker E: Bonus. [00:16:00] Speaker F: Lorna, wake up. [00:16:05] Speaker H: What? [00:16:06] Speaker F: You've been nightmaring it again. [00:16:08] Speaker H: Oh. Oh. Then it was all a dream. [00:16:13] Speaker F: I had a viewed myself. [00:16:15] Speaker H: Oh, I'm so relieved. [00:16:19] Speaker F: My dream included an aircraft carrier. [00:16:23] Speaker H: Aircraft carrier? [00:16:24] Speaker F: With a Roman soldier on board. [00:16:27] Speaker H: That's what I dreamed. [00:16:29] Speaker F: Oh, well, that's one thing we have in common anyhow. [00:16:34] Speaker H: Kirk. [00:16:35] Speaker F: Our dreams don't. Sorry, Kirk. [00:16:40] Speaker H: Listen. [00:16:41] Speaker F: Engines. Yes, and we're still dreaming. [00:16:46] Speaker H: I don't think so, Kirk. I think we're still on that ship. And there is a ship. And that dolman. And. [00:16:55] Speaker D: And we're moving. [00:16:57] Speaker F: The ship is underway. [00:17:09] Speaker E: You are listening to an adventure of man against fate in the American Broadcasting Company's different and thrilling program, the Croupier. Tonight, starring Vincent Price. [00:17:28] Speaker D: The Roman has placed his bed. [00:17:32] Speaker F: He plays for peace, redemption. Let's see how it all ends. [00:17:38] Speaker D: Lorna and Kirk come up on deck. The wet fog stings their eyes. [00:17:42] Speaker F: A wild wind hisses about the speeding ship. The wind and the fog. The wind. The wind. [00:17:57] Speaker H: It must be a dream. No ship ever went this fast. [00:18:01] Speaker F: Lorna. The whole thing is nothing more than a tricked up version of the Flying Dutchman legend. The blaspheming Dutchman, doomed around the horn forever and until a woman's love should save him. For Dutchman, read Roman. For woman's love, read pity. [00:18:16] Speaker H: Explain the ship. [00:18:17] Speaker F: The obvious explanation. Radio control and the Roman a madman. [00:18:22] Speaker H: The maledictions. [00:18:23] Speaker F: Crow forgery. Or the real article that May have inspired our tin soldiers. Masquerade. [00:18:29] Speaker H: The speed of this ship. [00:18:30] Speaker F: Fog distorts human perceptions, Lorna. Also, we may just be aboard a top naval secret. And that's an idea. Cross the ship's radio. Any signal at all would attract the navy's attention. If this is an experimental craft, let's find the radio room. We found the radio room. The equipment there was a long, long way from the ham outfit I used to have in my attic. My fumbling signal went out on a random wavelength. Then I stopped. I stopped and turned around and saw him. He was there in the doorway. The Roman. Steady, girl. How long were you standing there? [00:19:31] Speaker D: Infinitely. [00:19:32] Speaker F: What do you intend to do, anyhow? [00:19:33] Speaker D: Do? [00:19:34] Speaker F: How did you get aboard this ship to begin with? [00:19:36] Speaker D: How did I board the bloodships of Antiquity? How did I pierce the walls and iron barricades of beleaguered cities? Of the Tower of London, of the innermost hells of man's treachery unto man? Why do I roam the silent cities, destitute of life? Why do I tread among the armored skeletons, their mouths topped with the wormy bread of black betrayal? [00:20:03] Speaker F: The curse? [00:20:06] Speaker D: Tonight I pleaded for compassion. Tonight again I was denied. [00:20:12] Speaker H: I said I pitied you. [00:20:14] Speaker D: Words, lip service, pity. Spawned by fear, not born of true compassion. [00:20:20] Speaker H: You murdered your friend even. [00:20:24] Speaker D: But the glacier powders mountains in its own good time. The river cuts a channel in the rock. The fiery suns cool and darken unto ash. All things yield to time except the stain of one dark axe that the. [00:20:40] Speaker G: Torrent of centuries cannot wash away. [00:20:47] Speaker D: And yet a gentleman, they say, stranger, stood on a mount of olives and. [00:20:52] Speaker F: Said, pity, love, forgive. Was it in gone Jerusalem? [00:21:02] Speaker D: It may be so. I remember the words and you the place. And scarcely anyone the meaning or the execution. Scarcely anyone. [00:21:33] Speaker F: He. He's mad, all right. [00:21:35] Speaker H: Oh, no, Kirk. There's more to it than that. The things he says and knows and pretends not not to know. And that terrible hurt, melancholy of his. It. It's so strange. Like now. This moment seems as though we were surrounded and trapped by a vast, stagnant waitingness. A stillness. Listen. Still in waiting. [00:22:06] Speaker F: Yes, Kirk. [00:22:09] Speaker H: The engines have stopped. [00:22:11] Speaker F: So they have. [00:22:12] Speaker H: Let's go up on deck. [00:22:13] Speaker F: Why? [00:22:13] Speaker H: Quickly. I don't know why. Before it's too late. Hurry. Hurry. [00:22:31] Speaker F: Wait. Lorna. He's on deck. [00:22:38] Speaker H: Out there, pacing. [00:22:41] Speaker F: Here he comes. [00:22:46] Speaker H: He's in a dreadful state. [00:22:50] Speaker D: Enough. [00:22:52] Speaker G: Gods, have I not endured enough? Let me return to mine own time, into the dust of my comrades. An end to all this. [00:23:03] Speaker F: I'm going to Talk to that man. You Roman. You. Whoever you are. [00:23:10] Speaker D: I have told you who I am. [00:23:12] Speaker F: That's not enough. We can't swallow that story of yours. [00:23:14] Speaker D: You will have proof. [00:23:16] Speaker F: When? [00:23:16] Speaker D: Presently. [00:23:17] Speaker H: Kirk. Kirk. [00:23:20] Speaker D: I did not will myself upon this ship or all the others. And there have been many others. Galleys, triremes, tetradrines. The spice ships of the Indies. The Caribou, Cathay. [00:23:34] Speaker G: The Armada. [00:23:35] Speaker D: Privateers. Men of war. An aircraft carrier. Many ships and many wheels have carried me to my single destiny and my countless destinations. The Inquisition. The place of the faggot where Joan of Arc found agony and sainthood. The cell of treachery where Cortes parleyed with unlucky Montezuma. And who, in the wake of civil strife, saw the army sheathe the sword and unsheathed his sword. Why, I the Roman. Where one named Lincoln sighed and closed his eyes forever. And high upon the windy battlements of Castle Dunsinane I walked the castellated walls, my sword in hand, while filthy carrion night birds crossed the moon and heard. [00:24:31] Speaker G: Again beneath forevermore the eerie cry of Duncan, King of Scotland, by his friend. [00:24:37] Speaker D: And host, Macbeth, most foully murdered. So the century is crowded with perfidy. I follow my evil and unremitting star to haunt the scene of monstrous mischief and betrayal. So the centuries. So tonight. [00:25:03] Speaker H: Roman. What happened here? [00:25:06] Speaker F: Leave this ship. Leave it. [00:25:08] Speaker D: You will not perish. [00:25:09] Speaker F: Mark me. That's reassurance. [00:25:11] Speaker D: I say go. [00:25:12] Speaker F: You're crazy. [00:25:13] Speaker D: The time is at hand. Listen, wind. [00:25:20] Speaker G: Yes, master. My sword. Master. And I am unredeemed. And treachery unpurified, unpurged. Lives festering upon the corrupt earth. I have failed. [00:25:34] Speaker H: Poor man. Poor man. God. [00:25:44] Speaker G: Is it true? Am I delivered? The woman spoke. And the sword broke from my hand. [00:25:55] Speaker F: God. A woman's soul. [00:25:59] Speaker D: Soul spoke and did not counsel with. [00:26:01] Speaker G: Her fear, but spoke in pity. And I am redeemed. Shout, legions. Rejoice, ye manifles of tr. Receive me, dust of my yesterdays. Welcome me, comrades. Lift tie the golden eagles of great Rome and shout, thy captain is restored to thee. [00:26:25] Speaker F: The deck shuddered beneath our feet. The ship was shivering at every plate and rivet. Strange blue flames glowed coldly eerily from the superstructure of the ship. [00:26:35] Speaker H: Saint Elmo's Fire. [00:26:36] Speaker F: We were sinking. The carrier was going down. [00:26:41] Speaker D: By thy spears, O Legion Centurions. [00:26:45] Speaker G: Thy brother Javelins. Thy leader comrade, who died by my hand. Be comrade again to me. I am delivered. I am delivered. Senatus Populus Quay Romanus. The Senate, the people and the armies of Rome. All hail. All hail. All Hail. [00:27:19] Speaker D: Lorna. [00:27:19] Speaker F: We're sinking. Jump clear. [00:27:21] Speaker G: Jump. [00:27:27] Speaker D: More coffee, Mrs. Hardesty? [00:27:29] Speaker H: No, thank you, Commander. [00:27:30] Speaker D: Mr. Hardesty? [00:27:31] Speaker F: Fine. No, thanks. [00:27:32] Speaker D: You weren't fine when we picked you up in the water early this morning. [00:27:35] Speaker H: Thank heaven for the Coast Guard. [00:27:37] Speaker F: Yes, we both passed out in the water. [00:27:38] Speaker H: Well, I had a nightmare to end all nightmares. [00:27:41] Speaker F: You did? [00:27:42] Speaker H: Seems we boarded a mysterious aircraft carrier in the fog. [00:27:46] Speaker F: So did I. [00:27:47] Speaker H: Was there a Roman haunting some scene of treachery? Kirk? [00:27:50] Speaker F: Why, yes. [00:27:52] Speaker H: And I forgave him for his own treachery long ago. [00:27:55] Speaker F: Poor man, you said. And broke the spell. [00:27:57] Speaker D: That's very odd, isn't it? Where were your shipwrecked last night? [00:28:02] Speaker F: Off San Clemente. [00:28:03] Speaker D: California? [00:28:04] Speaker F: Yes. Why, that's impossible. Why? [00:28:07] Speaker D: Well, you better let me show you something. Here. Come to the portal with me and look out there. Is that coastline at all familiar to either of you? [00:28:19] Speaker F: Not to me. [00:28:21] Speaker H: It's Diamond Head. [00:28:23] Speaker F: Diamond Head? Lorna, that's ridiculous. In the light of Pearl Harbor. But only last night. [00:28:29] Speaker D: She's right, Mr. Hardesty. [00:28:31] Speaker H: Dennis was killed there in the bombing. I was with him. [00:28:35] Speaker F: Pearl Harbor. [00:28:37] Speaker H: Commander, may I be alone with my husband for a moment? [00:28:41] Speaker D: Of course, Mrs. Honesty. [00:28:43] Speaker F: Of course. [00:28:49] Speaker H: Kirk. [00:28:49] Speaker F: Lorna. [00:28:50] Speaker H: Something happened, Kirk. Something made it happen. The need to forget, to forgive. If we're to live in peace on earth. So long as bitterness over death. Death stayed with me. I had to remain true to his memory. But I forgave the Roman. [00:29:12] Speaker F: Yes. [00:29:13] Speaker H: And with him, forgave everything. For forgiveness, like peace must be for all. And I forgave everything when I forgave him and became free myself. I'm free, Kirk. For you. For life. I'm free. [00:29:38] Speaker F: She comes into his arms. Together they look out over the fateful harbor and imagine the drone of bombers and the thick smoke of disaster. [00:29:49] Speaker D: But somewhere, a legion glitters in the ancient sun and utters a soundless shout and raises itself spears. And one who had perished by treachery stands of the four and offers his hand again to the one who had. [00:30:03] Speaker F: Killed him, welcoming him home, forgiving his brother. [00:30:21] Speaker E: The American Broadcasting Company has just presented the first in its unique new series, the Croupier. Tonight, starring Vincent Price as the Roman. Every week at this time, the Croupier spins his wheel of life for a strange drama of man against fate. [00:30:39] Speaker D: The Croupier. Madame, place your bets. [00:30:59] Speaker E: Don't miss next week's gripping play when the American Broadcasting Company again brings you a drama of man against fate. In the Croupier. Heard with Vincent Price tonight were Margaret Brayton, Dan o', Herlihy, Howard Culver and Paul Freeze. Musical effects were by Rex Corey. The Croupier is written and directed by Milton Geiger. [00:31:32] Speaker A: That was the Roman from the Croupier. Here on the mysterious old Radio Listening Society podcast once again, I'm Eric. [00:31:40] Speaker B: I'm Tim. [00:31:41] Speaker C: And I'm Joshua. And I want to place my bets. Tim and Joshua win. Eric loses. [00:31:51] Speaker B: Oh, wow. Wow. [00:31:52] Speaker A: I don't. [00:31:53] Speaker C: Not in a competition, but just in enjoyment of this episode is what I mean by. [00:31:57] Speaker A: No, no, no, no. This was. This is one of the best Scott Bishop written shows I've ever heard. [00:32:04] Speaker C: I knew Scott Bishop was going to come up. [00:32:07] Speaker A: It's interesting. I do like some things about this. I don't like some things about it. You remember last week's episode where I kept talking about grounded writing and performances? I think that there's a premise here that was pretty good, but it got over the top. Hyperbolically charged for me in performance. [00:32:34] Speaker C: But I will say in its defense, it doesn't start one place and veer somewhere else. Nope, it starts there. And it's consistent. [00:32:41] Speaker A: Yes. [00:32:42] Speaker B: Yeah. The Scott Bishop comparison, I think, is not unfair. There is a dreamlike logic to it. [00:32:47] Speaker A: And they actually had dreams or they thought they were having dreams. [00:32:50] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. [00:32:51] Speaker B: It's high concept. Very high concept. But I feel it is executed better than Scott Bishop often does. [00:33:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I would agree. That's why I said it's really good. [00:33:02] Speaker C: It reminded me more of one of Arch Ober's plays and I mean from the series, Arch Ober's Place, than Scott Bishop. Cause it was out there to a certain degree, but coherent as a whole by the time you got to the end. [00:33:20] Speaker A: Absolutely. There's nothing incoherent about it. The story is lucid and. [00:33:28] Speaker B: Whoa, slow down. [00:33:31] Speaker A: No, I mean, it was followable. How's that? [00:33:35] Speaker B: Wow. Our standards have gotten very low. [00:33:37] Speaker A: I can follow the plot. [00:33:40] Speaker B: I did not choose this because I thought this was the greatest episode of radio, but it is so interesting as a single episode, as an episode. That is so high concept. And it was on abc. This was not some backyard radio. I don't know what the right metaphor is for when you do radio, and it's really crazy. I suppose inner sanctum is what that is, but. And just the 1949 message of forgiveness for Pearl Harbor. [00:34:10] Speaker C: Jeez. Yeah. I mean, to me, this was a allegorical version of Mission Accomplished. Yes. [00:34:21] Speaker A: Tread lightly here, because I don't mean any disrespect. To me, it had religious overtones of the whole Forgiveness, part of it. And they even bring up, yeah, Jesus and forgiveness to the point where I thought, is that the motivation behind this, to hide those lessons of that teachings of forgiveness? Do you know what I'm saying? [00:34:45] Speaker B: It could be said it's like a meditation on forgiveness. [00:34:47] Speaker C: Yes. And I think to not include Christ in a line of that would be odd. And that he's a roman soldier from 2000 years ago. So, like, you're almost missing a beat not to name check the son of God. Sure. [00:35:00] Speaker A: Right, sure. [00:35:01] Speaker C: And that's what I felt like it. And I think, Tim. Yeah, it's a great way to put it. A meditation on forgiveness throughout history. And if you're talking about betrayals, it also fits that theme. [00:35:13] Speaker A: Yes. [00:35:14] Speaker C: They're talking about Lincoln, Joan of Arc, Macbeth, Macbeth. [00:35:18] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:35:19] Speaker C: There's a lot of names that come up. So I didn't take it as overtly. Maybe religious in the most generic term, but I didn't take it as overtly Christian. [00:35:29] Speaker A: That's why I said tread lightly. I don't think it was that as much as it was. Was the point of this to drive home the moral story of forgiveness? [00:35:40] Speaker C: I think more to the point is the flip side of forgiveness. I think what this showcases is what does holding onto resentment get you, Right. A terrible marriage that you end up floating in the ocean, encountering Vincent Price dressed in Roman armor. [00:35:59] Speaker A: One of the issues I had with it is if I find myself on an aircraft carrier by myself, my first reaction is, sweet. [00:36:11] Speaker B: Best shipwreck ever. [00:36:13] Speaker C: Right. [00:36:14] Speaker A: Where's the galley? The other thing is, I know you love Vincent Price, and I know that that may have instigated what you were searching for that made you find this. [00:36:29] Speaker B: Perhaps this was almost literally like spinning a wheel of like, what? Just show me random episodes, random series, croupier. [00:36:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:37] Speaker A: I have said in the past, I can take or leave Vincent Price. Right. I get the attraction, but he's not my favorite, nor does he bother me. I thought, weirdly, this is really understated Vincent Price, he wasn't as over the top as he usually is. [00:36:57] Speaker B: I mean, he's kind of supposed to have one note like, I'm miserable. [00:37:00] Speaker C: Do not ask this guy a question because you're going to get a slow. [00:37:05] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:08] Speaker C: So who are you? I have walked through the cascades of time. [00:37:14] Speaker A: That was another issue I had with. It was I was getting lost in his soliloquies. What are you saying? [00:37:22] Speaker C: Are you saying you literally couldn't follow the words or you tuned out? Sorry. [00:37:26] Speaker A: You're making Me self exam. I probably tuned out because it's all flowery and weird. You're right. [00:37:36] Speaker C: You got me buried in all that hyperbole, that bloviating. There were some great images and I was occasionally surprised, like when he gets to Macbeth. Wow. But I guess that's really appropriate for your performance style. Yes. Tim. [00:37:54] Speaker B: Yes. [00:37:55] Speaker A: What did you think after you listened to it? You haven't really said, like, oh, I listened to this and I loved it. Or. [00:38:02] Speaker B: Well, one. It makes me incredibly curious what the other seven episodes were like. Were they all this audacious and ambitious When I was first go through the enjoyable parts of Scott Bishop was a thing I was experiencing of like, what? [00:38:20] Speaker C: What? Yes. [00:38:21] Speaker B: And when it all came together at the end, like, you spiked the landing. That's not right. [00:38:28] Speaker C: So you're trying to make a sports metaphor. [00:38:30] Speaker A: No, no, no. He's done landing an airplane. Four point landing. [00:38:33] Speaker B: I don't know what I'm talking about. They ended real good. That's what I'm trying to say. Like I just did. [00:38:40] Speaker C: Yeah. I found duck. [00:38:41] Speaker A: The landing. [00:38:43] Speaker C: Yes. It's a gymnastics term. [00:38:45] Speaker A: Yes, says the dad who has a daughter in gymnastics. [00:38:49] Speaker C: Yes. [00:38:49] Speaker B: You know the aircraft carrier? They're like, why are they on an aircraft carrier? What does this guy want? [00:38:55] Speaker C: A Roman soldier and a married couple who are having. [00:38:59] Speaker B: Yeah, there's some guy that she feels bad about. [00:39:02] Speaker C: These disparate parts are interesting by themselves, which kept me listening. But I was like, they can't put all this together. Yeah, right. For me, they really did like that ending I did not see coming. I did not see the way they scaled that from the very intimate human consequences of holding onto resentment in a marriage to a global consequences of holding onto resentment after a war. You have to rebuild the world order. You have to rebuild a marriage. And drawing that line from the small to the very large I thought was fascinating. And I was like, I can't believe you pulled this off. [00:39:48] Speaker B: Yeah. That might be. The degree of fascination might be overly like, did I actually think it was good? I think so. [00:39:56] Speaker C: But more I related to the couple because I kept going, am I dreaming this? It has this very weird. You feel like you're in that liminal state and it really is. It is some sort of purgatorial state between the past that is holding you back, your crimes from the past, the feelings from the past, and the freedom being the future. And you're just stuck in this in between state. And that's what I felt during the entire radio play. [00:40:28] Speaker B: And it's interesting the idea Of I am forever tortured. I'm cursed. And to solve this, I need someone sort of to forgive me to, someone to sympathize with me. [00:40:42] Speaker A: Yes. I did enjoy that idea of, in order for me to gain redemption, I have to get someone to care about me. [00:40:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Legitimately, as time goes on, I get harder and harder to relate to. [00:41:00] Speaker C: And here you are, a ghostly Roman soldier on an abandoned aircraft carrier, and it can't be motivated by terror. [00:41:11] Speaker B: I mean. [00:41:14] Speaker C: I don't know what you're gonna do, buddy. [00:41:17] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:18] Speaker C: Also, just listening to it a second time, the little clues, because when he's explaining that to Lorna, he says, I can get forgiveness from a woman, the mother of our species, someone who has experienced a loss through treachery. And at that moment, I'm like, what is that? What is this backstory with Dennis? [00:41:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:38] Speaker C: And Dennis became more and more fascinating. And I was like, this can't possibly pay off. And it did. [00:41:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:45] Speaker C: I think we're left to assume Dennis was some, like, a boyfriend she had before meeting her husband who died. [00:41:51] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:52] Speaker C: Once you see Pearl harbor, you put all those pieces together. There's not a bunch of clunky dialogue of them going over their marriage or anything like that. Assumes enough intelligence on the part of the listener, which is good, because at that point, if someone who isn't willing to make those leaps would have tuned out. Anyone who's still with you at this point is someone who. I'm not judging people's intelligence, but someone who is engaged in this type of storytelling. It's their taste, and they want to put this puzzle together with you. And I appreciated that they recognize that fact. [00:42:29] Speaker B: The one thing that sort of knocked me out of the groove here. [00:42:35] Speaker C: Was the demonology expert that Kirk was. [00:42:40] Speaker B: No, now that you say that, it was like, okay, let's just go to bed, and we wake up, we'll find out this is a dream. So they go to bed, and they wake up, and they're having some conversation, and, like, so are you in your home or are you on an aircraft carrier? Because you probably know by now. [00:42:59] Speaker A: Yeah. The waking up and going, oh, that was just a dream. I know I'm in a completely different place. I don't recognize. You said something about purgatory that I found interesting. And the idea that he says to them, go to sleep and get some rest if you can. And so they do, and then they wake up, and they're still there. I like the concept that they didn't do, but the idea that they just kept going to sleep to see if they could wake up. And it just never, ever ended. But they kind of do. [00:43:29] Speaker C: They repeat it again after she does pity him and the sword breaks, the thunder crashes, he's forgiven. And then you have that really the audio equivalent of a jump cut when they're just on another ship with the captain and they've just awakened and they talk about a dream again. So you kind of have that dream within a dream within a dream quality that I really found appealing. And even his sudden expertise in the area of curses and demonology and the scroll, clearly a D D player. [00:44:00] Speaker A: I think that was another moment that struck me, by the way, when he said, oh, this is the Maledictus. Yeah, Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she goes, oh, what? How do you know what that is? And by the way, is that a real thing? [00:44:17] Speaker C: Yes. [00:44:17] Speaker B: Oh, it is a real Roman thing. [00:44:20] Speaker A: Oh, I want to know more about that at least. [00:44:23] Speaker B: Like, According to the 15 seconds of Googling I did. Yes, that's a real thing, I think. [00:44:28] Speaker A: Wait, I just think I wrote another radio show. [00:44:32] Speaker B: I think not unlike the casting the runes of the past, you cursed bit of scroll. [00:44:38] Speaker C: And I want to be really clear when I'm laughing at that, though. I think that was supported by the rest of the surrealness of this. That helped to make it feel legitimately dreamlike to me, I think. Last week I criticized the episode you brought. I don't know why I'm just going. [00:44:53] Speaker B: To bring it back and do it again. [00:44:56] Speaker C: But this is. [00:44:57] Speaker B: Poor man. [00:44:58] Speaker C: This is an example where this sudden convenient knowledge supported the tone that already existed within the radio play. Versus, I critiqued the sudden convenient knowledge of there being at odds with the previous tone set by the radio play. Sure, there was no reason for me to go back and kick you. [00:45:19] Speaker B: Sorry. [00:45:19] Speaker A: I will point out, though, that after we were done recording Joshua Sit and went, I did like it, though. [00:45:25] Speaker C: No, I said I had fun listening. [00:45:26] Speaker A: I had fun listening to it, though. So here's what I want. When you're editing all these, I want you to go forward, grab that and put it in the other one. [00:45:38] Speaker B: I didn't say I liked it, but I had fun. There's also a meta level of me enjoying this, which is the world that this implies is so much larger than the story itself tells. And it makes me want to know, like, what was this series? [00:45:55] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:55] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. [00:45:57] Speaker C: It was a great opening idea that croupier and place your bets. And I love the idea that, again, on that meta level, is this going to be a good story? Crap story. Let's see what happens, everybody. And I wonder if, to some degree, it had a different tone from episode to episode, because I think it would be a fitting structure to have very drastically different stylistic approaches to the storytelling. [00:46:24] Speaker B: Or if they maintained high concept where audiences were just like, no, think too hard. No, like, right. [00:46:33] Speaker A: Because Tarzan's listening. [00:46:35] Speaker B: Yes. [00:46:37] Speaker C: Me Tarzan, you crap. [00:46:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:44] Speaker C: And, you know, I'll be honest. Like, the first couple minutes of it, I went, vincent Price as a Roman. No, I don't buy it at all. And I was totally sucked in by, like, two seconds in. I'm like, yeah, he would have been. [00:46:56] Speaker A: The worst Roman soldier ever. [00:47:01] Speaker C: Can you please pass the mayonnaise guacamole? That's a deep cut for patrons. Oh, this is a nerd question that you're not going to understand at all, Eric. [00:47:12] Speaker A: Oh, I'll be over here. [00:47:13] Speaker C: Did it make you think of Pariah from Crisis on Infinite Earth? [00:47:17] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. Now it does. [00:47:18] Speaker A: Yes. [00:47:19] Speaker C: Ow. I was like, oh, I knew my fellow 80s comic book nerd would be on board for this, but that's the first thing I thought of. Pushing up my glasses. [00:47:27] Speaker B: I kept trying to like, am I supposed to know who this guy is? Which I don't think I am. [00:47:32] Speaker C: I don't think so either. I thought the same thing. Back to your original thing about the religious connot. There was a moment where I went, oh, is that where we're going? Like, he's the soldier who, like, pierced Christ's side? [00:47:45] Speaker B: And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah. [00:47:46] Speaker C: But like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm looking for meaning where it isn't. And I think it was the famous. [00:47:52] Speaker B: Betrayers of Cassius and Brutus. Like, no, that's not. [00:47:55] Speaker C: And I think ultimately, maybe some listener will point out how wrong we are here, but I think ultimately, the sort of genericness of his crime is what makes it applicable to both their marriage to the world after World War II and things like that. If you were a specific character, I think that would be harder to apply it to your own situation. [00:48:16] Speaker B: If your marriage is like the assassination of Lincoln. [00:48:22] Speaker C: Sex. [00:48:23] Speaker B: Super tyrannous. [00:48:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:48:25] Speaker A: I mean, I think you just hate going to theater. [00:48:28] Speaker C: I think there's all moments in our marriage where we have to admit, I'm a bad actor. [00:48:33] Speaker A: So let me ask you guys this. I had a. Twice or three times. And they're very slight touches of. This reminded me of the story I wrote, Song of the Bittersweet. [00:48:46] Speaker F: Oh, yeah, yeah. [00:48:46] Speaker C: When they're talking about the speed at which this Is going. [00:48:50] Speaker A: And he's jumping boats, trying to find something for eternity. Traveling the world in a boat, presumably. [00:48:58] Speaker C: With the aircraft carrier. That's also the foreshadowing of Pearl harbor that this is maybe the last scene of historical treachery that he visited. And he's been trapped here since Pearl harbor on this ghostly aircraft carrier. [00:49:13] Speaker B: I was tickled by the thinking of like, okay, so this is a highly advanced naval ship being run by remote control. An elaborate way to test us. At a certain point. The logical explanation is so much more ridiculously just because it's a ghost. [00:49:32] Speaker C: Right. [00:49:32] Speaker B: It's the only thing that makes sense. [00:49:33] Speaker C: Things way more serious. Right. Did you see the scroll? Come on, buddy. Well, there's also that great moment where the writer just admits. Yeah, this is basically the Flying Dutchman. Give me a break. [00:49:50] Speaker A: Any other thoughts on this? [00:49:52] Speaker B: We kind of set up just the. The gestalt. [00:49:56] Speaker C: Hey. [00:49:57] Speaker B: Of all these elements that come together at the end in a way that it made sense the whole. [00:50:02] Speaker C: What is that? The Italian pronunciation of gestalt. Gestalt. It's a week. [00:50:15] Speaker B: These elements that once you see them all together they make sense. But when you see them in their individual parts, it's this fractured dream. That's that as you said, like if this weren't so interesting, I would leave. [00:50:29] Speaker C: Yes. [00:50:30] Speaker B: Oh. So but occasionally put these little caveats on there. For me. This is a classic. This is a really satisfying thing to this little rare gem to find. [00:50:39] Speaker A: And I think you throw classic on it. Yeah, I'm going to say that not a classic. I found it to be a little soap opera esque. I know that we have supernatural being soap operas. [00:50:56] Speaker C: Have you watched in life in the delivery. Oh, you mean the style in the. [00:51:00] Speaker A: Performance and in the. [00:51:03] Speaker B: There's that one soap opera that has. [00:51:04] Speaker A: Like the possessed lady and it seemed like the overriding goal was to reunite their love. [00:51:14] Speaker C: But the reuniting their love is a metaphor is allegorical for something else. So I don't think it's. [00:51:24] Speaker A: I did not like it that much, but it's not terrible. It was okay. I didn't want to be like terrible. [00:51:32] Speaker C: I think this is something you have to either love or hate. [00:51:35] Speaker A: Then I hate if that's my only choice. [00:51:40] Speaker C: Oh, fair enough. I think I have to delineate here between classic. That is a definition where like this is foundational radio. But for me, thank you Tim. I love this so much. Thank Tim for like Joshua old time radio nerd. This is a classic piece of radio. I found it so fascinating for everything we just said as something that perplexed me initially, frustrated me, and then I found really compelling, and then ultimately was able to pull all those pieces together into something powerfully allegorical. But I'm also impressed by how much it stands the test of time as a message. In the time where people hold on to their resentment, we are enemies, we are fighting. There's no pluralism. There's no acceptance. Like, yeah, we don't agree. We only agree to disagree. [00:52:32] Speaker B: One of these wins and the other. [00:52:33] Speaker C: One loses at the expense of pretty much everybody. So, yes, I found it moving both in its historical context, because it's certainly of historical interest, but I think it stands the test of time in that it is applicable today. [00:52:48] Speaker A: All right, Tim Tom. Stuff. [00:52:51] Speaker B: Hey, go visit ghoulishdelights.com that's the home of this podcast. You'll find all the episodes we have there. And of course you can find our episodes anywhere you get your podcasts. But you can leave comments on our website. [00:53:00] Speaker C: Look under your couch, there's an episode of Mysterious Old Time Radio. Feed it. [00:53:04] Speaker B: Love it. You'll also find links to our swag store. You can buy some swag. You'll find links to what shows we have coming up. And you'll find a link to our Patreon page. [00:53:15] Speaker C: Yes, go to patreon.com themorals and become a member of the Mysterious Old Radio Listening Society. I bet you didn't know you could become a member. Yes. Yes you did. We say it every time. Wait, what? [00:53:32] Speaker B: I could become a member? [00:53:33] Speaker C: You could become a member. Oh yeah. [00:53:35] Speaker A: It was a test. [00:53:36] Speaker C: We have so much fun stuff. This actually reminded me of the kind of stuff we often listen to on Secrets of the Old Time Radio. And I'm so glad you put this out to the general listening population. That's right, I called you general, those of you. But if you like some of these more oddball episodes, we have a lot of those behind a paywall. So pay us and go to patreon.com themorals today. [00:54:09] Speaker A: And the Mysterious Old Radio Listening Society Theater Company does live on stage recreations of classic old time radio shows and a lot of her own original work. If you'd love to us or want to or even have any curiosity. I don't know why I use the word love. If you want to see us performing live audio drama, please go to ghoulishdelights.com and there you will see where we're performing, what we're performing and how to get tickets. And if you can't make it to our shows. We do have audio recordings of those shows that we make available to our Patreons as yet another perk. What is coming up next? [00:54:45] Speaker C: Next we'll be listening to an episode of My Choosing the Judge's House from Fear on four. Until then. All right, we're ready. We're rolling. Okay, which one is the Roman from the Croupier? Did you listen to it? [00:55:02] Speaker A: No. [00:55:04] Speaker B: I'll be curious to hear what you think.